Ancient Warriors – The Spartans 3/3
Historical Documentary – Ancient Warriors – The Spartans 3/3
Duration : 0:9:55
[youtube psNvDp2Lyrw]
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ProSense theme created by Dosh Dosh and The Wrong Advices.
shit i bet 1 in …
i bet 1 in 1000 of todays men would last a week of their trainning
theres a couple …
theres a couple thing wrong in these vids…..thats not what there swords looked like…thats not how they held there spear…and they say leonidas wrong…
The battles are so …
The battles are so unrealistic
@MooGiGon
I don’t …
@MooGiGon
I don’t blame you, for becoming confused, since youtube’s briliant methodology of displaying discussion insists on priority of the newest (effect to cause) rather than the oposite that easily makes sense to to anyone.
@MooGiGon
Yes this …
@MooGiGon
Yes this is true. For the Spartans the ill treatment was part of their Philosophy of Justice. Rights for those who deserve them – no rights for those who don’t. Different rights, for different people, in varying degrees according to each one’s value of contribution to others – no matter whether Helot or King. Equally, any Spartan was at any time liable to loose those rights he was proved unworthy of. As long as this was followed it lead to constant improvement of their society.
@MooGiGon
They …
@MooGiGon
They were also just. Their society gave the chance to anyone wishing to take it. Spartan Helots had many chances of ceasing to be Helots. Messenian Helots lost that right through their base insult not against Sparta but against Artemis. Mind that the Spartan Patriarch, Hercules, symbolizes the man who is ordered to slavery by the Gods and manages to finally free himself by fair and honorable deeds. That is the entirety of the essence of the eternal Spartan superiority.
@MooGiGon
Cont’d: …
@MooGiGon
Cont’d: I’m not sure what we’re even debating anymore at this point. I agree with you about Spartan military dominance prior to Thebes’s uprising, and the strength of their character. I will say for Ag. though, Sparta wasn’t too great interacting/melding with other cultures, at times, so Persian influence likely had its impact on him. Where I don’t agree is in the “rights” of Helots. They no doubt existed, I just don’t feel they were as widespread as the ill treatment was.
@thetasound
They …
@thetasound
They weren’t the initial crushers, no, but when Sparta was making a comeback under Agis and Cleomenes, by of course resorting to their proper laws, the Antigonids did quash that effort. I’d credit Epimanondas’ reforms as part of Thebes’ victories as well, not just Spartan training.
@thetasound
…
@thetasound
Agesilaus the Lame, no matter how praised by Plutarch should have never been elected King or accept his election as one as that clearly violated Spartan Law from the begining. Judging by this, (and other things) I see all his actions only as a well staged theater of a selfish egotistical man who finally betrayed not only Sparta but entire Greece to enemies he himself had defeated. What Lycurgus created with his laws – he destroyed by pretending to obey them.
@MooGiGon
I agree …
@MooGiGon
I agree on that about Suetonius and Anna but not for Plutarch. Helots, had a chance depending on their achievements to become Perioikoi (freedmen), or even Neodamodes (participating in the Agoge), classes that although were not equal with Spartans in rights were never the less free. By the same process also a Spartan could loose his status and that rather proves he did gave the Thassian gifts to the Helots, had he wished another way of life he could have it anytime.
@MooGiGon
…
@MooGiGon
Achaeans/Antigonids were not the ones who crushed Sparta, Thebans trained by Spartans did much earlier than that were the ones that did. But the main reason for their downfal was they started violating their own laws, they very secret behind their power. When Agesilaus the Lame was once wounded by the Thebans some told him “Thebans rewarded you justly for training them so well in war…”
@MooGiGon
Very …
@MooGiGon
Very true, one should not trust always without judgement.
Plutarch as a Theban (Thebans finally defeated Spartans and deprived them of their Hegemony over Greece) was thus very unlikely to write propaganda about Spartans. The incident with the Thassians relates about Agesilaus the Lame who by breaking Spartan Law betarayed the Greek cities of Ionia to the Persians and lead Sparta to its downfall.
@MooGiGon
Since …
@MooGiGon
Since the post leading into this vanished: Not every incident in every biography ACTUALLY happened. Take Suetonius and Anna Komnene’s works, a lot of that is probably factual. A lot isn’t. In many cases, stories are invented or exaggerated to show an element of a person’s character that they believed he/she possessed. Agesilaus likely was austere. Did he really give all those things to the Helots? Maybe, maybe not. But it is a nice way to show him as austere, and that’s the point.
@MooGiGon
And …
@MooGiGon
And lastly, since I get way too few characters here, Sparta’s wars against Messenia were pretty conquest-y, no? They maintained their hegemony by fighting outside of Sparta itself, so while not fighting for conquest, they fought to retain dominion won through fear of reprisal. Also, after being crushed by the Achaean/Antiognid alliance, Antigonos III marched into Sparta with his army, so he kinda had to step on its soil. Maybe he didn’t take it over, but they weren’t always on top.
@thetasound
I …
@thetasound
I never said they weren’t austere. They were. Not my point. Neither is whether or not I think the Helots were strong/superior. My point is, the Spartans (pretty accurately) believed in their own superiority, and they treated the Helots (and Messenians especially) with contempt, using them as an economic tool and battlefield fodder as a result.
@thetasound
The …
@thetasound
The point is, since I ran out of characters, don’t always trust that this or that event really happened. Just hold it as an example they believed was real for what it showed about the person/place they were describing. Heck, it could have been an account of Spartan propaganda that Plutarch, writing in the ROMAN period, and his readers would have honestly believed happened, given what they had seen and read about Spartan valour, when it may or may not have actually taken place.
@thetasound
Not …
@thetasound
Not saying that Spartan austerity was fiction, just saying that not every story about it always happened. A lot of what’s in Suetonius and Anna Komnena’s writings, for example, are fictionalized to show popular attitudes/their own biases about certain figures. Did that mean they really weren’t like that? Not at all. It just means a particular event or example may have been exaggerated or invented to show that or it was based off an account that was embellished from elsewhere.
@MooGiGon
Well if …
@MooGiGon
Well if Spartan austerity was fiction Plutarch and some two dozen other authors would have long ago been ridiculed into the laughing stock of the ages, but that’s no proof either.
That Sparta ruled for 500 years over Empires 100 times its size without war of conquest and that no invader for more than 3000 years now has ever been able to set foot on Spartan soil is.
So what do you think, were Helots strong/superior for being slaves to luxuries?
@thetasound
If you …
@thetasound
If you wanted it to reveal what I already knew about the Spartan sense of superiority and that the Helots were “brutalized,” then sure. Yes, they gave the Helots the fancy stuff(if this actually did take place and wasn’t a story invented to show off Agesilaus’ virtue, and let’s face it, the ancients did that type of thing), but the Spartans also delivered a backhanded insult that they were weak/inferior for needing or wanting such things.
@MooGiGon
Well, …
@MooGiGon
Well, maybe this will reveal more to you.
Once in the Island of Thassos King Agesilaus was offered, cartloads of sweets, elaborate furniture and ceramic vessels, gold and precious stones, meat, wine, honey, butter, and various types of cheese and oatmeal. He took the oatmeal and ordered everything else back as useless. When Thassians insisted he said, Well OK, give that to the Helots And they said But why? He replied Such tempt the brutalized (Helots) not the Free
@thetasound
If you …
@thetasound
If you follow the Spartan story, then yeah, they had a right to be upset. Still, that was in the 8th Century, so there had to have been some poor treatment lingering for the revolt to have been so widespread in the 4th Century. And I never said they killed the helots for sport, rather, it was part of the agoge, the Crypteia in fact. And my guess would be that they had Helots in their formations for necessity’s sake so that they could beef up their forces in times of great struggle
@thetasound Thats …
@thetasound Thats true. The Romans came from Troy. Troyans are Greeks as well. Of course, the romans had greek slaves as well.
@joesub007
The …
@joesub007
The maxim “Laconizein est philosophin” is used up to these days to describe a an extremely concise and clever statement or answer among Greeks.
It means “To speak like the Spartans is to philosophize”. The term “laconic” refers to exactly that.
How do you think all this tradition came to be, through illiteracy?
There’s more in Sparta that meets the eye…
@GrayGJ007
The …
@GrayGJ007
The maxim “Laconizein est philosophin” is used up to these days to describe a an extremely concise and clever statement or answer among Greeks.
It means “To speak like the Spartans is to philosophize”. The term “laconic” refers to exactly that.
How do you think all this tradition came to be, through illiteracy?
There’s more in Sparta that meets the eye…
@baarar
And one …
@baarar
And one fine day they reached the land of the Maniots (of Spartan descent).
Anyone before them quickly learned they had better avoid that place in the future.
They didn’t.
They kept trying to set foot on Mani for about 400 years.
Some people are just too stupid to learn anything.